Georgia’s Armenian and Azerbaijani minorities – what is their view on the Nagorno-Karabakh War? What impact does it have on their day-to-day interactions and how they coexist in one country? This is what I’m going to talk about today with my guests, PhD Anna Cieślewska, a social anthropologist, and Klaudia Kosicińska, an anthropologist and a researcher of Georgia.
About our guests:
PhD Anna Cieślewska – social anthropologist. Currently a lecturer at Collegium Civitas in Warsaw, as well as a member of the Centre for International Studies and Development of the Jagiellonian University. As someone whose research interests revolve around the socioeconomic development of Central Asia and the geopolitics of Central Asia and the Caucasus, as well as Islam and local traditions in post-Soviet states, she has spent the last 16 years working on research projects and initiatives taking place in the CIS and the Near East.
Klaudia Kosicińska – anthropologist, researcher of Georgia, PhD student at the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences. She studied cultural anthropology and Eastern studies with a focus in the Caucasus at University of Warsaw. She is a recipient of scholarships from the Javakhishvili Tbilisi State University (2016–2017) and Yeditepe University in Istanbul (2022), as well as a winner of the Preludium research grant (2022–2024) offered by the Polish National Science Centre. Between 2015 and 2017, she co-organised the Georgian Participatory Budget project of the Inna Przestrzeń foundation, as well as the One Caucasus festival. Since 2018, she has researched the mobility and translocal practices of the Azerbaijani community in south-east Georgia. She is affiliated with Kaukaz.net and the Inna Przestrzeń foundation, and has published articles in Nowa Europa Wschodnia, Pracownia Etnograficzna and Chai Khana. Klaudia is also a co-organiser of Gamardżoba Kino, a Warsaw-based festival of Georgian cinema.
Anna and Klaudia are jointly working on the project Conflict mobility: the consequences of the Nagorno-Karabakh War in 2020 – Azerbaijanis and Armenians in Georgia. The project is run under the auspices of the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences. Sponsored by: Polish National Agency for Academic Exchange (NAWA)
Memories of Caucasus
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]
Hello and welcome. Thank you for accepting my invitation. Today we’re going to talk about a very interesting topic. When I learnt that you would be researching the perception of the war in Karabakh, I realised that nobody had studied it yet, or at least that there wasn’t a lot of information available on the subject. That’s why I’m so curious about the results of your research. But before we get to that, the usual question: What were your first memories of Caucasia? When did the Caucasus first become a part of your lives?
Anna:
My dad once went on a trip to Georgia when Gorbachev was in power. He had friends who were Georgians, and I remember he brought back various interesting stories and fruits. When he came back, he brought us a feijoa fruit – that was the first time I’d seen something like that in Poland. He also brought back interesting stories. I also met his friends, those who’d come to Poland. So these were my first memories. And then, from when I was an adult, I remember the 90s and the war. The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, Georgia, Chechnya. I was still young when the first war broke out, so I wasn’t too interested in what was happening. But I was involved in the Second Chechen War, because I worked with Chechen children and taught visual arts there. All my friends were also involved. Everyone working at the repatriation office, for example, as well as journalists, Chechnya was on all their lips. That’s why Chechnya had the greatest impact on me. Later, in 2006, I spent three months working in Chechnya. So these were my memories, one very pleasant, a childhood memory, and the rest are memories of the conflicts.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
What comes to my mind is the Caucasian mix. On the one hand, you have the hospitality. On the other, the conflicts, which we will talk about little today, the whole Caucasian mix. And what about you, Klaudia?
Klaudia:
I don’t have any memories involving me, only a story I heard from someone, or rather in a film. I mean, I watched a very interesting film once. It was black-and-white, although it looked more like sepia to me. It was screened in a Warsaw club around 2006. The club’s name was Jadłodajnia Filozoficzna, and they did film screenings. And I remember the film piquing my interest a lot. I learned that it was Georgian, though that didn’t mean much to me back then. But what stuck with me was that it had to be a fascinating place. At least as far as cinema is concerned. I don’t remember the name of the film, so that’s a goal that’s related to my other passion, cinema, Georgian cinema. My goal is to find that film. Of course we all heard about the changes, Saakashvili’s Rose Revolution. But for me it was always very distant and unrelated to what was going on in my life. A bit later, in 2014, I went to Georgia on a student exchange. Then I found work in the Marneuli area. And that’s how it all started.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Fingers crossed that you find that film. Our listeners are probably also interested in learning its title. Maybe we can crack this one together with our listeners. Give us a shout if you know what film that was, maybe we can do this together.
Klaudia:
I’d love that as well.
Historically, where are the Georgian minorities from?
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
And since we’re on the topic of studying and searching, today’s topic is related to minorities in Georgia. Generally speaking, the topic of minorities is not very popular in Georgia. To me it also seems that it’s not common knowledge that any minorities even exist. Anyone who’s been to Georgia on holiday has probably seen the mountains and drunk the wine. But if that was your trip, you may not know that there are other nationalities in Georgia as well, including Armenians and Azerbaijanis. You are studying their views on the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. We’ll get to the conflict itself in a moment, but I’d like to ask you first, where did the minorities come from? Because they live in regions of Georgia which are not so obvious. Let’s talk some more about this.
Klaudia:
There are two regions in Georgia which are primarily inhabited by the minorities we are studying, although there are of course other places as well. These regions are located in the south and south-east of Georgia. The first is Samtskhe–Javakheti, or the historical provinces of Meskheti and Javakheti. The two now form Samtskhe–Javakheti. The other one is Kartli, or Lower Kartli. These are the regions inhabited mainly by the Armenian and Azerbaijani minorities. You could say that the south, or Samtskhe–Javakheti, is mainly Armenian and Armanian-Georgian. Kartli, on the other hand, is more mixed, with an Azerbaijani majority and an equal number of Armenians and Georgians. But there have also been other minorities there, Greeks, Russians and Ukrainians, but later, in the 90s, they began to leave after the fall of the Soviet Union. So if anyone would like to go on such a trip and see the more obscure aspects of Georgia, these two regions are a must-see.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Right, from a historical perspective, if anyone’s wondering… During its golden age in the mediaeval times, Georgia spanned from sea to sea. So historically speaking, why are these regions in particular inhabited by Armenians and Azerbaijanis?
Klaudia:
Partially it’s because these are border areas neighbouring Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Historical processes, expulsions and migrations are what led to them being inhabited by such an eclectic mix of peoples. As far as Kartli and Marneuli are concerned, the earliest sources mention the 6th and 7th centuries. When it comes to the Azerbaijani minority, those were Turkic tribes who had ventured out of Central Asia and settled in the area. Recently, I’ve talked to a friend who lives in Gardabani. She discovered that her ancestors had come to that area as early as the 6th or 7th century. But the main influx happened between the 9th and 10th centuries. The 11th century saw increased migrations and the reign of David Aghmashenebeli, known as the Builder. So that was also the 12th century, during which tribes from beyond the northern reaches of Georgia were resettled to help wage wars. When it comes to the Armenians, they have also lived in these areas for a long time. In the course of our research we learnt that there had been autochthonous Armenian settlements in Georgia. Eventually, during the rise of Turkey, more and more Armenians migrated to Georgia in search of a more stable and secure life. Simply put, that was a result of the Ottoman Empire’s policy towards the Armenian minority. That was the 18th and 19th centuries, as well as the early 20th century, the Armenian pogroms, the expulsion of Armenians from Turkey. Akhalkalaki was witness to two main processes of Armenian migrations. In addition to the autochthonous population, which had lived there since the early Middle Ages, a large influx of migrants took place in the 19th century. Those were the refugees from Turkey, from areas which had previously been Armenia. And finally those who had been driven out in 1915 migrated to the southern parts of Georgia and also settled there.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
I think there’s one thing that needs to be said. The Azerbaijanis and the Armenians are different. I think it’s worth keeping in mind when looking from our European, Polish perspective. What we are all used to is that people who live in Poland, and in our region in general, are all relatively similar. But the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians, living in Georgia no less, the differences are significant, including different religions and completely different languages which have nothing in common. That’s why I’m also interested in what your results were. Before we get to Nagorno-Karabakh, let’s talk about Georgia itself. To what degree are the Armenians and Azerbaijanis similar, considering that they have lived in Georgia for generations? Are the two communities really still distinct from each other?
How do Armenians and Azerbaijanis differ from each other?
Anna:
I’d like to add one thing to what Klaudia said. The Azerbaijanis, they are not exactly the same Azerbaijanis as those who live in Azerbaijan. We should keep in mind that there are also Azerbaijanis in Russia, in Iran. Their ethnic group is not uniform. But it found a place for itself in Georgia. But the Armenians vary a lot, you’ve got the Javakhetis, you’ve got Armenian villages, Azerbaijani villages. And what’s important, there’s also an Armenian community in Tbilisi. It’s a very old community, and it actually used to be the elite, they influenced the life of the city even in the 19th century. Those were intellectuals, merchants and craftspeople. And that community is still there. When you interview them, the Armenians sometimes say that they differ from one another depending on which region they’re from. So, as far as the differences between the Armenians are concerned, they wouldn’t agree that they are homogeneous. But when it comes to the differences between the Azerbaijanis and Armenians, I’ve never given it much thought myself, but they do talk about them a lot. One Armenian merchant once said to me: Know what? We are very similar to the Azerbaijanis, more so than we are to the Georgians.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Shocking, right? When you look at Azerbaijan and Armenia as countries, I couldn’t imagine either of them saying something to that effect.
Anna:
Yes, yes. But when I look at them, I see similarities. But I don’t want to go too deep into that because these are very subjective takes. But the fact is, they must also have different opinions on the conflict. To a degree, of course, and the same applies to their opinions on their own communities compared to the Armenians in Armenia and the Azerbaijanis in Azerbaijan.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
In relation to how these peoples perceive each other… It seems to me that, from our perspective, we treat all of them as a single group. A single group of Armenians, but when you think about, there are many more Armenians scattered across the world than there are living in Armenia. And now we are getting to what you focused on when researching these minorities, the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War. The conflict did not start in 2020, because there was also a war in the 90s. If you could give us a quick rundown. What is the conflict about, and how are you studying it?
What is the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict about?
Anna:
Let me go back to the differences. I think that, when discussing minorities in Georgia, it needs to be said that there are ethnic minorities and religious minorities. Armenians are of course an ethnic minority, as well as a religious one, but they are still Christian. The Azerbaijanis are also a religious minority, but from a completely different religious system, namely Islam. And this is very important from the perspective of what the Georgians think about this, and their thinking is very dualistic. But where should I start with the conflict? It’s like what came first, the chicken or the egg? The Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict for Nagorno-Karabakh is like the chicken and egg question. Determining who owns Karabakh is a complex issue dating back to Caucasian Albania. So it goes back a long time. It’s like if we were to argue with the Czechs about who is the rightful owner of Trans-Olza, citing arguments dating back to Mieszko I. To put it simply. The war itself began in 1989, sparked by various Armenian pro-Karabakh movements, because Perestroika was happening, and the Soviet government no longer had control over certain things. I won’t be getting into the details, though Gorbachev’s view is an interesting topic. They also cite him in interviews, claiming that Gorbachev supported the Armenians, or that he supported the Azerbaijanis, but how did it come to this?
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
So they say that about the other group? That he supported the other side?
Anna:
The other side, because of how it all ended. Heavy fighting broke out in the 90s after the fall of the Soviet Union. That was the First Nagorno-Karabakh War, which Armenia won. It grabbed a lot of land, including areas which had been part of the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic. That’s when an entity was formed which they called the Republic of Karabakh, or Artsakh. That’s when this quasi-state was established, not recognised by anyone, not even Armenia. And of course many conflicts have erupted since then. A ceasefire was signed, but no peace agreement. What the Armenians call the Second War began in 2016. It was several days long, heavy fighting. The conflict continued to escalate in various forms, and it escalated again in July 2020. But nobody really expected Azerbaijan to just start a war in September 2020. It began on 27 September and lasted until 10 November. And it ended very abruptly. I went on Facebook and saw that some kind of accord had been signed. I grabbed my phone and started calling my Azerbaijani and Armenian friends. By afternoon I was in my car. I was on my way to Javakheti. I wanted to know what was going on there, considering what had happened. That’s all. That’s when the Azerbaijanis recovered the areas they’d lost, as well as a large part of Karabakh. And then the peace process began, and it continues to this day. But the truth is, in September Azerbaijan just trampled over Armenian territory, and according to predictions the peace will be negotiated on Azerbaijani terms. Armenia is simply too weak. It’s an open-and-shut case of a country invading another country. There are various theories on what comes next. As we all know, Russia is occupied in Ukraine. Also, in the media and the Turkish-Azerbaijani discourse there are strong voices claiming that Turkey and Azerbaijan will become the peace brokers in the region.
How do the Armenians and Azerbaijanis view the conflict?
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
We are now witnessing a change occurring, a fluctuation. The Nagorno-Karabakh War is unusual in that there hasn’t been a conflict in the Caucasus with such an impact on the region. It directly impacts Armenia and Azerbaijan. And in relation to what you’re studying, it’s evident that the conflict impacts Georgia economically, but also with regard to the minorities who live there. And when it comes to the historical background and finding out who was there first, I’m curious how the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians view this conflict, the 2020 war. What differences in the perception of the conflict did you notice between the various groups of Armenians and Azerbaijanis living in Georgia? What do the Armenians and Azerbaijanis think of the people living in Georgia and of the conflict itself?
Klaudia:
I don’t really think we can split them into such smaller groups, after all, they are largely two distinct entities, the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians. As far as the Azerbaijanis are concerned, perhaps you could analyse their opinions on the conflict by region, or rather subregion within the region. But as for me, my research focused entirely on Marneuli. Ania’s also conducted research in Gardabani, so perhaps she can add to this.
As far as my observations and experiences with regard to Gardabani, when I compare my research in Marneuli, I think what’s important is that the Azerbaijani minority in Gardabani is much more integrated and has a lot more genuine, frequent contact with the Georgians. There’s no Armenian minority there. When it comes to Marneuli, I think that we could compare it to Tbilisi. There are places in Tbilisi which have historically been very diverse, like the Old Town, Ortachala, which used to be Azerbaijani, but also Avlabari, which is very Armenian. And then you’ve got students, young people who come to Tbilisi to study. They meet in class and study together. There’s also the 1+4 programme, which contributes to bringing the minorities closer together in a way, influencing their view of the conflict. The 1+4 programme was introduced in 2008. It really got going in 2010. It’s aimed at the minorities of Georgia, enabling them to study at universities by offering them intensive Georgian language courses to prepare them for enrolment. There are some nuances to the programme that I won’t be getting into, but it has led to a large increase in the number of Armenians and Azerbaijanis studying in Tbilisi, for example. And so these minorities meet each other in class. Before that they also take Georgian courses, in which they need to learn, they need to talk, they need to interact.
My research showed that there exists a certain unique way of talking about the conflict. I remember a group at the University of Tbilisi, which had four members of the Armenian minority, twentysomethings, as well as some Azerbaijanis. When I was listening to how they discussed the conflict, I felt that that was a mixed focus group. They would speak a certain way, choose specific words. Some of them expected certain things to be said. But I had the impression that the Armenians were a bit withdrawn during the conversation. During my research I could feel that they felt great pain and a sense of loss stemming from their ethnic identity. But the listeners might also find it interesting that a lot of people in Georgia have literally no connection to that area and the countries involved. That’s why for them it’s somewhat of a dream land. This is their way of shaping their national identity, also because of the inactivity of Georgia when it comes to fostering a sense of being a Georgian, not an Armenian or an Azerbaijani.
Also, there’s the social expectations. An Armenian or Azerbaijani will say different things when talking in private, and different when in the presence of others from their community, who expect certain things to be said. And I noticed that they felt responsible for mitigating the conflict. On the other hand, they feel they are the winners now. Also, there have been many volatile, very difficult situations which directly erode this sense of community. An example of this would be openly declaring that ‘we won, we are Azerbaijanis, we won the conflict’. So on the one hand, they feel that they carry the burden of mitigating the conflict. On the other, they feel victorious, that they have triumphed after 30 years. This showed up a lot in my research, many people would say that they’d waited 30 years to take it back, to win. So I think that the issue of prestige is very important, because there’s a duality in Georgia. On the one hand, there’s humiliation, because they lost, and also they are a minority, which means they are being discriminated against.
But there’s more to this. Because the Armenians and Azerbaijanis suffer from discrimination, they also feel a connection because of this. Both of these groups are surrounded by a majority, right? Of course, the situation in Javakheti is different than in villages in which there are Armenians and Azerbaijanis living together. I’m mostly talking about Marneuli here. So, to use a cliché, they’re in the same boat. Together they’re a minority surrounded by a majority. That’s why they often say that they’re more similar to each other than they are to the Georgians. I would often feel that the Georgians are alien, foreign people, completely unknown, who very often avoid any interactions. The Georgians have their own language, their own religion, a sense of belonging in their autochthonous land. They tolerate them, but can also be intolerant of the minorities. That’s why I feel like the minorities are united as a single community. They also form language communities as well, because many Armenians speak Azerbaijani, and Russian is also a lingua franca there, so they form a different type of space there, a non-Georgian space.
What was happening in Georgia during the 2020 war in Nagorno-Karabakh?
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Perhaps we should draw a comparison to the situation in the two countries. If you talk to Armenians living in Armenia and Azerbaijanis living in Azerbaijan, you’ll see that the two nations have a completely different relationship. You could say that there is no relationship at all. I think one of the most well-known incidents was when Armenian soldiers from Armenia and soldiers from Azerbaijan were participating in the same exercise. A large conflict broke out, leaving one person dead. In this context, the way I understand it, it’s not like some Armenian-Azerbaijani village suddenly became divided and engulfed by a conflict just because a war broke out in Karabakh. The communities still work together in a way. I’m curious what the relations were in those villages during the conflict?
Anna:
We noticed a great deal of political correctness, avoiding discussions about the conflict not to ruin the relations. But that doesn’t mean there’s friendship. I’ve heard this a lot in my interviews. I’ve also worked at the largest marketplace in Tbilisi, which also has Azerbaijanis and Armenians. ‘We are not friends, but it’s best not to talk about that, because why should we start conflicts? It makes no sense to do that here’. But that’s not to say that no friendships form between individuals. Let me tell you a story about some merchants. An Azerbaijani woman has an Armenian friend, her neighbour. But when some family members from Azerbaijan visited her and saw the neighbour come over, they got very upset. They wanted to leave, and said that they would go home if she would continue to visit. They started asking her questions, asking if she wasn’t afraid that the neighbour could poison her, add something to her tea. So she asked them: But why? Why would she do that? What’s the point? We live next to each other, things are normal.
And she used this Azerbaijani expression that Azerbaijanis living in Azerbaijan eat vipers, meaning they are evil. When I look at my research notes that I’m transcribing now, some cases just seethe with animosity, regardless of place. But I’ve also met people who want absolutely nothing to do with it. Enough conflict, they said. Even if we’re in the right, or whoever else, too much blood has been spilled. So the relations are very complicated. But to sum it all up, apart from one-off cases where two people are friends and the mixed areas, the two communities live separately from each other.
There’s distance between them, and even though they are being additionally integrated by the Georgian state, the state keeps them at a distance. This is because Georgia has no planned and uniform minority policy. Theoretically you might expect the Georgians to like the Armenians, because the latter are Christians. But it’s actually the opposite. I’ve noticed a great deal of Armenophobia. I’ve heard about it many times, even unprompted. I didn’t even ask them how evil the Armenians were, but the Armenians themselves would also mention it. But that doesn’t mean that the Armenians like the Azerbaijanis. Because the latter are said to be backward and are Muslims, for example. But there are also some interesting nuances. Still, we shouldn’t generalise and say that all people are the same, that everyone thinks this or that. There are of course Georgians who hold different, even completely opposite opinions. Some think that the minorities should be connected, integrated. As far as the mixed villages go, it’s a long story. From my cursory observations, a balance is maintained. There are also religious nuances, but I’ll get to that. I am friends with an Armenian family, and they claim that there aren’t any issues. They coexist with their neighbours, everything’s okay. But they do feel some social distance. They are still surrounded by Muslims, they have different traditions and customs, even if they have decent neighbours. But they also told me that family members from Armenia would call them during the 2020 conflict because they were concerned. And they responded saying that they were okay, that nobody was attacking them. Yes, they did feel uncomfortable when the pre-war events were happening. When Azerbaijan won, there was a real fiesta in the streets, they would sacrifice rams. So they didn’t really feel comfortable at the time. But generally speaking, nothing happened.
I will only add that, when it comes to the mixed areas, and the war in general, it was generally calm. There were incidents, among young people of course, violent incidents. The Azerbaijanis of course organised demonstrations after the war. But when I was doing the interviews, I felt like, as far as the Azerbaijanis go, it was all influenced by Azerbaijan, by the Azerbaijan Centre, the embassy of Azerbaijan. And when it comes to the Armenians, while Armenian propaganda did do its thing, the movements were more grassroots in nature. But that’s just my own unsupported thesis, perhaps a hypothesis, which is still in flux.
Klaudia:
I got the same impression during my research. I also believe that the Azerbaijani community is being influenced by outside forces. It’s very important to mention that in Javakheti, there is a lot of support from people who migrated to Russia, wealthy people who send home money. When it comes to supporting, you may wonder why the Azerbaijanis aren’t doing anything of the sort. On the one hand, it’s a completely different dynamic and kind of activity. On the other, a lot of the people I interviewed said that it wasn’t necessary, that Azerbaijan could afford the war. Armenia is a poor country, so it was due to a sense of involvement. It was very strong, the people felt that they should at least donate a kilogramme of potatoes.
You asked me about relations, about how people treat each other, so I’d like to tell a story from the marketplace. I have an interesting story about a female merchant from a village near Akhalkalaki. She told me that her son often goes to Marneuli to sell goods at the marketplace there. He buys figs to bring back to Akhalkalaki. Sometimes he needs to stay overnight. There’ve been times when he needed to sleep in the marketplace, to find a place for himself there. And she told me that his Azerbaijani friends would protect him so that he wouldn’t get hurt. After all nights can be dangerous. She said that they set up guards so that he could get a good night’s sleep, which sounds very interesting. I think that how much the two minorities communicate with each other is very important. If they work together, if they trade with each other, their relations are much better. The alien is not so alien any more. An Armenian friend of mine once told me that, when one of her friends went to Baku, she decided that she wouldn’t message her on WhatsApp, because her friend is Azerbaijani, so she didn’t want to start any conflicts. She didn’t want her friends in Baku to see that she was friends with an Armenian. She decided that she wouldn’t talk to her while she was abroad.
Or the military, for example. I would often hear that Armenians and Azerbaijanis serving in the Georgian military become friends. And they often learn Georgian there. This is also interesting because they need to learn Georgian and so on. For many, this is their first contact with the language. And one Armenian guy told me that one of his friends from the army, an Azerbaijani, had moved to Baku and lives in Azerbaijan. They can’t see each other, but when they want to meet up and relive the old days, grab something to eat and have a drink as friends, they meet up on neutral territory, in Georgia. One of them still lives in Georgia, the other in Baku, and their friendship and contact survives in Georgia. They meet up from time to time as friends from the army.
What surprised you when you were researching the minorities in Georgia?
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Considering what we’ve learnt, their day-to-day lives seem somewhat normal, they even form friendships. This is very interesting, but at the same time sad. Due to geopolitical reasons, they need to be constantly aware of the community they are a part of at the moment, and behave accordingly. To wrap things up, I wanted to ask you about things that surprised you during your research. Usually when you conduct research, you have some initial hypotheses, you want to study some things. But the beauty of fieldwork is that you may learn things you weren’t expecting. You may be surprised by the things you discover. One thing that surprised you during your research. What was it?
Anna:
To be honest, I don’t know. Nothing was particularly surprising to me. What did surprise me a little was the hate though, because I had some interviews in which they would tell me that everything was fine, that they lived together. But on the other hand, they would tell me things which I was shocked to hear, to learn that such things still occurred. There was that student group I mentioned, which was politically correct. And everyone tried to be nice. But later, when I did ‘pure groups’, only Armenian, for example, things were completely different. People can egg each other on and tell tales, making it difficult to judge whether they actually believe all that stuff. So it was really sad to discover all that. That this is all here and now, that it’s a completely different world sometimes.
Klaudia:
I’d also say that it was the hate that often manifested during the interviews. For example, some people tried to convince me that Armenia’s never existed, that it’s never been a thing, that it’s all lies. I was surprised that I had to restrain myself at times to avoid getting into debates, while also being unsure how I should behave, if I should just play dumb or treat some of them like partners. I just tried to convince them that maybe what they were saying wasn’t completely true. I was of course given a piece of their mind in return, so that was a lesson for me to avoid getting involved. It all ended okay, with no arguments. But I was very much surprised that there were so many mutual prejudices. So it’s like you said, dualism, a split. On the one hand, we like each other, we live together, we are neighbours, but on the other, we are all drawn to our own countries.
We forgot to mention, there are 300,000 Azerbaijanis, 233,000 according to the statistics, and 150,000 Armenians. And the situation is different when it comes to the Armenians. A lot of the Azerbaijanis aren’t even from Azerbaijan. They came to Georgia directly from Central Asia. And they settled in what today is Georgia. On the one hand, they say that they’re not from here, but on the other, because of the state propaganda, because of Azerbaijan, SOCAR and other institutions which have a lot of influence on this minority, they feel that they must be a part of the country.
I was also surprised to learn about a soldier from Azerbaijan who has Georgian citizenship and lives near an Armenian village. He fought in Karabakh, he survived, and is treated as a hero. A feast was organised when he came back after a year. He’s really young, a 19-year-old guy, treated as a great hero. His mom knows that nothing bad will ever happen to him. And she’s also content because the local community respects her. But it also seemed to me like it was some kind of great secret, that she had to hide where he lives from everyone else. And I would later learn that the Armenians knew all about it. That was interesting to me, that the communities could live together. It’s like they know that everyone supports and donates to their own side, at times even joining up to fight. But on the other, they accept the fact that an Armenian must support his country. And that an Azerbaijani must support his. This is fascinating to me, that you can coexist in one country and live this dualistic life, tolerating each other like this.
Asia [Języki Kaukazu]:
Very, very interesting conclusions. Although they appear complex at first glance, the stories you told me demonstrate that the area still hasn’t been studied enough. So on behalf of all fans of the Caucasus and anyone who is interested in the topic, I’d like to thank you for your research. I think it’s very, very interesting, eye-opening and informative. I’d also like to encourage our listeners to plan a trip there when visiting Georgia, to see it all with your own eyes. See for yourselves how these people interact with one another. I think it’s an opportunity to discover a different aspect of the region. I’d even venture as far as to say that it’s a more in-depth look than what you usually get. Thank you for sharing all this with us.